Author Topic: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development  (Read 1902 times)

MarvinMan

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2016, 06:15:03 pm »
How much damage do grenades do? I set one off inside a pressuretank, and the floater armour remained intact.

I think it might be better to up the damage so that they can break everything, and reduce the area of effect. The knockback is probably ok how it is, but it might be fun to make it even more powerful.

PressureLine

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2016, 07:29:12 pm »
From memory, grenades do about 8000 damage (it is variable, depending on how far you are from ground-zero)

Like I said earlier, there's going to be a massive part hp rebalance with v0.5, but I will probably bump grenade damage up to 10,000 to make them sure to destroy anything in their path. Also hooks should now be able to detect the platforms and pillars, and possibly energy bridge fields, which should enable making some more interesting arenas.
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z26

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2016, 07:56:10 pm »
I'm surprised you can make such a fundamental change to the hooks in assembly :)  That's going to be a pretty great change.

Ps i do agree with marvin's suggestion for a somewhat smaller but more destructive blast
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 08:22:40 pm by z26000 »

PressureLine

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2016, 08:24:11 pm »
The irony is that because it is a bitfield it's as easy to change in MSIL as it is in any other language, just had to change the layer mask from 260 (256+4) to 268 (256+4+8)

The truly interesting thing about hooks is that the distance is only used to determine whether or not the hook can grab, it actually doesn't grab onto the object (hex or planet) it is close to, it grabs onto the fabric of the universe (which is why it can't grab onto parts).
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MarvinMan

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2016, 08:33:40 pm »
In that case, it could be useful to have the option to override the check to make hooks able to fix at any point in space.

That behaviour kinda explains why blueprints of bots with active hooks don't work properly. I wonder if there's any way to stop blueprinted hooks from disappearing off to the coordinates they were saved at?

z26

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2016, 01:38:01 am »
Hey marvin!  I've found a way to solve your problem.  Open the text file of your blueprint, then remove the underlined part :


hook001@638364584 . permissions 31
hook001@638364584 . hook_point [5006.251000,65.676410,-4.669806]
hook001@638364584 . hook_rotation [0.038130,0.001029,270.010600]
hook001@638364584 . attached 1

hook001@638364584 as hook
hook001@638364584 local_to a_3443787776@44752004

However, don't remove that part

e_3262842199@1795374658 . value 1
e_3262842199@1795374658 as hook_attach
e_3262842199@1795374658 input_for hook001@638364584

For this to work well, you must hover your mouse on the surface you intend to put the bp on.  The orientation of the blueprint is decided by where your cursor is when you press shift + ctrl, not where you finally click.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 01:45:01 am by z26000 »

PressureLine

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2016, 09:15:03 am »
How much damage do grenades do? I set one off inside a pressuretank, and the floater armour remained intact.

I think it might be better to up the damage so that they can break everything, and reduce the area of effect. The knockback is probably ok how it is, but it might be fun to make it even more powerful.

The concussion is effectively a 'special effect' at the level of damage it has, any reasonable-sized bot is going to be completely destroyed by a grenade explosion, and anything that isn't (ie only catches the edge of a blast and loses a few outer pieces) isn't going to be affected by the blast. It would be cool to have a 0 to 1 float value that can be input to a grenade that alters the proportion of blast damage and concussive force but probably not achievable at this point.

Still crunching the numbers on the plasma cannon damage thing, and cant decide on a DPS value that seems right. It's mainly trying to get a dps value that works to not make 1 or 2 capacitance weapons not horribly OP, yet also doesn't make high capacitance weapons only get their advantage from higher velocity.
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MarvinMan

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2016, 09:51:42 am »
Thanks for finding that fix for blueprinted hooks, that should be useful.

Given how difficult it is to aim accurately, there probably isn't a way to discourage the use of rapid fire without making low energy shots mostly harmless. If low energy shots were nerfed that hard, I wouldn't be surprised to see combat shift to much closer range or entirely switch to melee, which would likely end up with the two bots ramming each other resulting in a mutual kill/disable.

As you mentioned earlier, adding a massive damage bonus to high energy shots is pointless if they still only take out one part. Perhaps it would be possible to make the projectiles continue to exist for a while after hitting a part, or make higher capacitances fire multiple projectiles is rapid succession.

PressureLine

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2016, 10:45:56 am »
Given how difficult it is to aim accurately, there probably isn't a way to discourage the use of rapid fire without making low energy shots mostly harmless. If low energy shots were nerfed that hard, I wouldn't be surprised to see combat shift to much closer range or entirely switch to melee, which would likely end up with the two bots ramming each other resulting in a mutual kill/disable.

Yeah, as I stated before, I think there's a place for that style of robot, but it shouldn't be the only viable tactic. There are other options like increasing the force a part receives when it is hit by a high energy projectile, that could be changed to increase exponentially, as that force can cause other parts to be ripped off their connections or otherwise disrupt/interfere with the target's operation.

As you mentioned earlier, adding a massive damage bonus to high energy shots is pointless if they still only take out one part. Perhaps it would be possible to make the projectiles continue to exist for a while after hitting a part, or make higher capacitances fire multiple projectiles is rapid succession.

At this point it's probably ok that capacitance > 10 is less useful in damage terms, as the increased shot velocity has it's own benefits (easier to generate a hit at medium/long range for one) beyond the damage that it causes.

Did a 'first-run' test of the new damage and shoot_force parameters, and it seems to be alright:


« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 10:51:44 am by PressureLine »
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MarvinMan

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2016, 01:58:51 pm »
Doesn't it take an absurd amount of force to break connections? If you can make it work, making high power projectiles able to cause serious knockback could make for some interesting strategies.

Perhaps it's time to get an ACL thread going again, unless there are any more serious changes to discuss.

Giving hooks a field of view would be nice, but I'm guessing that it wouldn't be feasible.

z26

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2016, 06:04:09 pm »
How would said fov works?  Give you the closest intercept in a cone?  give you an array of intercepts ? Or make you a depth map?

Because if its the latter it would be awesome as you know but the programming system is too limited blablabla...  I wonder what kind of super smart bots people could come up if they had access to better sensors and better programming.  One guy can dream.

I'm also anxious about getting that thread but of course take your time if you need to work on some stuff first.

MarvinMan

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2016, 07:23:42 pm »
Returning the lowest distance in a fan pattern would be the most useful with the current system in terms of navigation.

I've tried making a radar-like scanning system before, but it all gets rather complicated to extract useful information from the output.

PressureLine

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2016, 09:45:12 pm »
I'm also anxious about getting that thread but of course take your time if you need to work on some stuff first.

I have the old ACL start-post archived, want to add some rules regarding 'swarm' bots and the part limits in general, I'm thinking the fairest way to go on that is something like this:
  • Maximum 3 individual bots
  • The sum total part count of any 2 of the bots must be under the part count limit for the weight class: ie You can have 2x10 part bots and 1x20 part bot as a 'lightweight' entry, but not 2x15 + 1x20. Parts used to connect the bots together for blueprinting purposes, and parts used for central control do not count.
  • Each individual bot  must be 1) Detached from the other bots at the start of the match 2) Be individually capable to some degree (ammo for grenade cannons, simple rockets, mines etc do not count as individual bots and count towards the part limit of the bot that carries them)

I also need to finish playing around with the Rawbots code, and see what other goodies I can squeeze out of it. Current list looks like:
  • Hooks can now detect (and attach to) Structures (the large Platform pieces, Pillars and Energy Bridge forcefields
  • Various physics speedups and (hopefully) improvements
  • Volumetric part hitpoint rebalance (based on 1000hp Continuums)
  • Plasma Cannon/Flux Capacitor rebalance. FC now charges at a flat rate of 2 capacitance/second. PC dps consequently fixed at 800dps. Rationalisation of shoot_force to try and avoid physics issues at high capacitance

There may or may not be some other things that I never bothered writing down before I stopped actively developing XFM in 2014 but that should be everything.
"Never assume that anything you've never seen before is benign. Most particularly not something that says 'MARINES' on it."

z26

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2016, 10:09:21 pm »
"The sum total part count of any 2 of the bots must be under the part count limit for the weight class: ie You can have 2x10 part bots and 1x20 part bot as a 'lightweight' entry"

Why? cant you just limit the total no of parts to the weightclass limit?  That would be more on an apple to apple comparaison and simpler anyway.  three 30 parts bots vs one 60 parts bots sounds unfair to me.

"1) Detached from the other bots at the start of the match"

Thats a loophole to allow bots as long as you split them after the match has started.

Also, personally id scale the number of swarmer vs the weight class. 2 for lightweight, 4 for medium weight 6 for heavyweight.  Or maybe base that on a formula based on the opposing bot.  That way it handles unlimited fine.  If some mad scientist decides to post a 400 parts to unlimited (since unlimited stands for unlimited) you can answer in kind :p
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 10:18:18 pm by z26000 »

MarvinMan

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Re: Rawbots 0.1.4 eXtended Functionality Mod (XFM) Development
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2016, 10:21:25 pm »
I agree that it would be unfair for a single swarm bot to exceed the limit for a single bot. If anything, the swarm bot should face a penalty for having a numerical advantage. You couldn't really fix it by having the swarm fight multiple opponents, as multiple independent bots would have a lot of friendly fire incidents.